Bible Students

this episode we have special guest Andrew Paulson the assistant pastor in Calvary Murrieta overseeing small groups today Andrew is going to talk about what discipleship looks like for him in this role and how he lives Life as a Great Commission Christian as well as how he represents Christ to non-believers so Andrew why don’t you begin by talking about your background a bit uh so my background is I don’t know I get everybody in Ministry is unique and how they got there and how um God bring bring them there but um uh my background is I’m a a high school teacher right I’m a social studies teacher um and was volunteering um at our church um my wife and I both and I always look for churches where we could serve at be part of not just um you know just uh sit and not uh do anything else and so um it’s interesting how once you start serving one area things start to open up and uh you build trust or relationship and things kind of lead to New Opportunities and sometimes ones that you weren’t expecting or necessarily wanting but um so yeah so that’s I I just was volunteering at our church and different ways being part of a Bible study um and then helped with a family camp and that’s where I really got to know the the pastor and his wife uh through that uh project which led to me doing that a second time helping out at Family Campus but to them asking if I’d be willing to do youth ministry to do the high school Ministry uh parttime which was a a big decision kind of a career altering decision for me and my family and but felt um just a lot of things as praying through it doors opened up in a way where I could do youth ministry and keep my teaching job at at a part-time level and um and that that’s been really that that started seven-year process basically of doing High School Ministry and then felt like it was time for uh a transition or just was feeling um just saw some opportunities and and ideas um there and and it was that was also really God thing where I was able to raise up an intern to take over for me and then um and then but uh in that process our head pastor Pastor Brian Bell he wanted to keep me on staff and and was like I don’t not really really let really let let you go as what he said and I was like yeah I think I I put a lot of time into this I don’t think i’ I’m ready to let it go either like I’ve built relationships I’ve grown and serving and preaching and things like that and so um and so he and I kind of brainstormed what other things needed uh work on at C maretta areas that we had holes and serving our people and and Community groups small groups was the area we both agreed was a real big glaring need and then that um started that journey and I’ve been doing that for now um four years so yeah so that’s my Ministry background uh here at Cal maretta I did a lot of missions trips in college and um you know served in different Campus Ministries and grew up um in the church so uh serving has always been part of kind of my my DNA my family culture if that makes sense yeah definitely um andan you said that you were a social studies teacher um so you went to you went to college correct yes yes I went to C St Louis abiso um and I got my history major there and my teaching credential there awesome and you also taught at the Bible College in Marietta right tell me about that yeah so um I as you know Jacob the Bible College was in the process of getting accredited and they needed um people who had Masters uh for that process and I have my masters in leadership and organizational uh skills which sounds weird it’s really organizational behavior but anyway um and uh that’s uh through isza Pacific and so I had my masters like a lot of teachers do and I had become friends friends with Andie Dean who was over the Bible College at the time and he would also attend Calvary maretta and so as he was looking to he he had used quite a few of our staff as teachers before at our school but that was a lot of them don’t have Masters um you know in the Calvary Chapel movement not everybody had the traditional education background at least back in the day and so um but he and I just playing basketball talking hanging out and knowing I was doing youth ministry he’s like oh I need a youth ministry teacher you have your Masters right yeah I have my masters and he was like hey would you be willing to do this and that was kind of like a bucket L thing like you know every every teacher kind of dreams of you know what would be like to teach at the college or work with you know um young adults instead of with you know teenagers and stuff like that and U and so when that when he offered that and I looked at the timing and stuff like oh I could do that yeah I’m you know creating curriculum and creating lessons is totally in my educational background and experience and so um I I jumped to that and I’ve did that uh three times uh yeah three different sessions because they don’t offer that class every semester at the Bible College and um so I think three or four times I I I taught the course now was Lot thought expence definitely yeah um so why don’t you talk about your current work situation um and how you are able to disciple people and represent Christ to to non-believers things like that yeah um so my current situation is I oversee um a team of volunteers uh leaders who are willing to host uh Community groups in their homes at a on campus at the church and um and guide disc SS with people who sign up for uh to be part of groups at are church so um yeah so in discipling um it’s uh I I meet with my leaders semi-regularly I check on them ask them how things are going way I can pray um and then and it’s interesting when you carry the title Pastor it kind of they it ends up being they they want you there for other things right they let you know like different prayer requests for their family uh be there at a funeral or you know show up to the hospital or um so there’s a lot of ways that it’s important life moments or crisis moments you know like um and I don’t get as many calls as a lot of the other pastors on staff at our church but um those relationships end up being places where they lean on you in those moments at times or ask you for prayer for help or for advice so those are moments where you can speak into people’s eyes encourage them um and and so that’s where I I do a lot of my discipling of my team I also when we have our team meetings I try and have a feel for um what’s going on in the groups what people are struggling with what are things going on in our culture and speak to those in different ways um so so the part of my discipling is like educating um part of my discipling is just walking alongside people and being there for when those moments arrive um I think parenting you know I have two boys 116 uh one is 14 I I’ve learned more and more that um it’s discipleship requires a lot of availability which is very hard in our fast-paced American culture and I’m guilty of that I’m very T oriented kind of driven person but slowing down at just walking like you seees do in scripture slowing down at being available for when those moments arise to speak truth to uh be encouraging to challenge is is I think a big thing so I and with my B locational status I’m not very good at being available but I’m try I try to be like you know show up at the hospital when I know one of my team members is is sick or ill because I have a lot of elderly who are are on my on my team or I visit each community group at least once during the um the session that we’re doing which usually about 11 or 12 weeks so um so going there and seeing and and being part of it and you know meet sometimes or call you know so it’s it’s that gentle pursuit of people of checking in on them and just building that relationship and being available um is where you get to have that kind of influence that discipleship and then being ready to speak into those situations with with them in discernment and it it’s not easy and there’s a lot of missed opportunities I know I’ve had um there’s a lot of things where should have slowed down and not been so eager to speak but um like any relationship it’s up and down there’s mistakes and there’s Grace and there’s um you know just don’t let that discourage you or give up I guess and discipling is what I I try to do so yeah so that’s and then there’s of course also living out your faith and a way of modeling it but yeah that’s the discipleship part of my role right now in ter of speaking to non-believers um because I’m bational I’m at a public high school I have access to a lot of non-believers uh there’s constraint there um I try and people kind of glean that I’m a Christian in different ways because I host a a Christian Club in my classroom um you know sometimes they’ll ask like what are you doing this weekend I that church know then they hear like wait a second you do part time time why are you doing parttime well I was doing I doing youth ministry and sometimes that opens doors for questions about stuff um so the hard part is so charged right now because a lot of times what people want to know is like what do you think about Trump or what do you think about the the covid vaccine or what do you think about all these everything so politically charged and so I I really find myself trying to walk that fine line of okay I know they see me as a representative of a strong Christian as someone who actually serves on staff at a church or has given up a lot of time to be part of a church or whatever they know about my situation and and then my voice almost represents all Christianity to them which is like I don’t know if I want to get lumped in with her like you think Christian you think I might be like this type like or this type or that type and I I want there to be more new on which is hard so I I it becom very especially when it’s the crowd usually it’s at the lunch table there’s four or five of us it’s like what do you think about this right and so it it’s it’s like those you know I I wish I was more like Jesus where I could like you know he without sin can cast the first stone type of answer like really just makes people think and stop in those charged moments and don’t have that gift or I need to be I need to do better at it develop it stronger but um yeah there’s those times I have a lot of access to of course unbelievers to our youth in my classroom and try and plant nuggets of God’s truth in a strategic way or represent uh him well in those situations so yeah um witnessing in in my job situation comes with constraints that I have to be careful I want to last a long time there um but yeah so I don’t know if that answers your question completely but those are some of the scenarios that I I played out oh it definitely does absolutely um and so you served in youth ministry before and now you’re serving in community groups um can you tell me about how you choose and raise up and um kind of Mentor or teach them um how you raise up people in those communities to be the leaders either youth leaders or uh community group leaders well I I believe that this you know there’s not one type I think sometimes um it depends on the person I know some people who give really specific giftings personalties types whatever word you want to put there for like oh this is the this is the ideal volunteer this is the type of person we want and I I tend to you know uh push back on that notion and if I I’m much more uh wise and like okay this type work this type of work that type of work I can have an introvert I can have an extrovert I can have high energy I can have you know slow I think is um because at the end of the day in both our youth ministry and in in community groups what I’m looking what my particular Ministry is looking for which is probably different than like if I was leading a worship Ministry obviously I need people have some musical skills you’re comfortable on St stage stuff like that if they’re looking for a pastor to teach um you someone has to be able to be able to speak well in front of a crowd to some degree so so there’s and be able to craft a lesson you know be able to write things like that but when when I’m looking at like youth ministry volunteers and too many group people I mean people I jally just we’re trying to build relationship and because there’s so many different types of people within churches types of kids types of adults there’s a lot of different people can connect with others and provide influence and so so I I really I’m not that particular it’s more again like I said with the discipling of walking alongside and equipping and challenging giving them tips and tricks and how to relate to others and that’s the main thing is is developing relational skills so um for my my youth ministry um you know I we would have meetings once a month and we would uh go over what things are going on with kids and I mainly go over tips on how to conduct their small group facilitating time like okay you know and a lot of it I focus on what type of questions to ask because I’m looking for people who are not trying to talk the whole time because that’s just another you know sermon basically and that’s not what we want to do in these small groups or in these um connect groups for the Youth or whatever we call them we’re looking for people who can facilitate and get them to talk so they participate and a lot of that is through asking questions and responding in ways that encourages them to uh sell more so I do a lot of focus on that and really trying to get people to think about okay you need to not talk so much and ask questions you need to ask not yes or no questions but questions that are open-ended that allow people to share different ideas and how do you positively respond to when they share and how do you gently you know move conversation away from maybe something that’s not so healthy and so so that’s what I I demonstrated like recently I just showed a te video from alpha course on how a conversation should look in a healthy you know group and and they have this like um Sil like demonstration on this YouTube video that was like a minute long and and I think it helped people visually see like okay that’s the way I want the conversation to go and help them be more self-aware when they’re talking too much um and then just encouraging them to ask you know think about what types of questions to ask um so that’s what I do a lot of my my focus on is how to facilitate conversation how to help people talk and share um how to discern and look at what um what’s going on in their group um also how to um uh to help people uh share in the leading like to empower the people to give away their title in s or you know give them some responsibility so um yeah so that’s that’s what I do in the developing of leaders I think it it it it doesn’t happen all at once you have to consistently meet and remind and encourage and and learn from them you know I I there was recently a um a couple who came from one of our who was attending commity group she they were not leaders but they came up to me and said you know this really helps us because one of them was an English learner uh she’s been in America for a long time from Germany but still struggles a little bit and she was like when When leaders do this it really helps me and I knew other there’s other English Learners in our community groups and I so I pass that tip along to my leaders like hey you know this this woman shared this and I thought oh that’s a great point so I think also being open to suggestions shows that it’s a two-way street recently gave a message to our whole church body about um Mak disciples and um my when I look at scripture I see a lot of discipleship is a two-way street it’s mutual discipleship we learn from each other other than you know Jesus didn’t need to learn from us but um you look at you know the disciples P Peter James John all of them they were learning from each other they were challenging each other there was a mutual discipleship going on and then with their they learned from their churches you know Paul was encouraged by the people that he was serving and they were learning from him you look at the classic one that I I kind of expounded upon with Apollos and how he learned from Priscilla andilla but then they he was the pastor at their church so they were learning from him and there was this this Mutual discipleship going on there’s a give and take and so I think if you can create a culture when you’re leading in Ministry in a way with the volunteers that you’re serving is that they teach you and you teach them you learn from them they learn from you that becomes really healthy Learning Community uh one that will have a nice healthy um growth to it and also can checks on it right because then no one has all the answers no one is the person with in where you get all that pride and um you know dangerous situations develop and so I think you can create a culture that allows for everybody to learn from each other and to be open to suggestions showing humility that way I think that’s one of the main um ways that I I feel like I’ve tried to disciple any of my volunteers that I’ve worked with is trying to have this give and take back and forth Empower them to make decisions give them some uh uh ability to make decisions because if we’re developing leaders right if we’re developing people to volunteer and to be um to participate which is I think a a real big need in the American church today is instead of being a consumer and just taking but to participate and uh give we have to allow them to make some decisions people don’t you know if all they’re being told what to do and they don’t have any you know uh Power to make decisions or to have some control that’s not a lot of fun for people that doesn’t that feels very robotic um and there you grow through making decisions making mistakes learning from that and so being willing to allow that to happen think important and so I try and do that different ways like for instance recently my community groups I’ve been doing this for a while I’ve been saying like hey if you guys want to do something other than our basic sermon based because our community groups are sermon based like they look at questions based on that Sunday sermon and I was like if you guys ever wanted to do a curriculum or book outside of the sermon that’s fine you know let me know like I think that could be a fun challenge for some of you especially you’ve been with the same people for a couple years and two of them have done that this uh this spring I have one doing a book by Francis Jan Crazy Love is classic and then another one doing a classic marriage series and and so and just to see them kind of take ownership and run with it is pretty cool um and so and that helps them grow in their leadership helps them meet new challenges and talk to things so I think part of like when Jesus sent out the 72 right sends out the disciples 2 by two there’s this part of like let them go make mistakes let them go do things take careit and grow in that learning to you know not just follow the the recipe that you’ve said and that creates then opportunities for them to come to you with questions we’re having trouble with this or we’re we’re trying to figure this out what do you think about this so it’s through that um like for my secular education c s bu we have a slogan learn by doing and I think that applies a lot Christianity too you learn through doing that makes sense you grow through activ yeah absolutely um so why don’t we talk some more about some of the lessons that you’ve learned um through doing youth ministry and through doing community groups so um what are some some victories that you found in those areas um uh I would say one of the cool things I I think the thing that gives me the most Joy again it comes back to being a teacher at heart a coach um at heart is uh seeing people try something that worked right that uh they came back energized kind of like when the disciples come back and we saw this happened this happen and this happened Jesus right it’s those moments that really give you a a charge so whether be like seeing some kids that camp or at um a trip really go like I think I God’s calling me to do this or I’m excited about uh this um you know like uh um I had some kids who were uh my probably two one one that out I had two girls who were uh just starting in high school they were um you know they had been coming their freshman year now their sophomore year and I you know and I think as a leader I I try to have like discernment looking for the holes and the gaps in my Ministry and not not not rush to fill them but be praying okay God when the opportunity arrives please help me you know fill in this Gap F and that and I wanted to see more student leaders on the stage but not every kid is the comfortable on stage or wants to be on that and you know you force a kid up there and they do and then they feel stupid and like I want to do that again and backfires right you don’t want to give that kind of situation but I could tell these two girls might be comfortable doing some more on stage like announcements and being like the face of this youth group for a little bit and there two kids that I thought I could really they had good character and I could trust in that situation and so I just tell like hey what if what if you guys did the announcements this way and they one tried it trying like how’ that feel it went it felt pretty good like okay well what if you two guys kind of teamed up and like you guys do the you kind of be the announcement team and have fun with it we’ll just talk about growing it you know I’m not an expert but let’s see what happens and they ended up having a blast for the next like two and a half years doing it and now one one has been serving as an adult leader in the youth group uh for the last three years the other one is an intern at our church you know are probably Eden O’Donnell um and and I and they have a lot of other adults pouring into them I’m not saying I get any credit for that but it’s it’s those moments when you you put out a challenge and you let a kid run with it and see what blossoms from it right SE that with like kids with music Talent see that with um you know kids with just uh working with youth it’s you you give them a if you if you create a culture where it’s good to take risk and they’re not going to be criticized or um hurt for failing it’s interesting to see what blossoms out of there and so that that so those are like you know another some of my leaders right encouraging them to uh try this or try that and see them go on to serve in different careers like being social workers or uh continue to serve in the church and different ways um and because they had a they they discovered they enjoyed serving they enjoyed using their gifts for God in different ways that part really um excites me and so and and seeing those kind of Victories there um with my community group leaders same similarly um I what I love is see like I try and put out there hey guys as you develop these relationships with these people in your groups you know they might want to do things outside like doing the go to um barbecues or you know go do like a community service process together and to see some of the groups really run with that where like uh they now one is get they they go to each other’s birthday parties another one um I saw where uh they serve regularly at a uh homeless Ministry in like Elenor and show up and and help participate and and do different things and these are some of these are like elderly people in these Community groups like 60 or 70 where a lot of times you’re like I’ve been there done that I want to doing that stuff but they’re still serving they’re still participating with their gifts making the impact on the community around them and so um so you you you throw out suggestions not everyone’s going to take it but to see some like okay I’m going to take that risk and take that chance and then they go like I like that I want to do more of that or participate in stuff like that they catch the the joy of serving um uh through those opportunities and so so those are some of the things that I’ve really enjoyed watching people using their own gifts and creativity and and and time and energy um and see what happens you know and I love that you know I love that I didn’t necessarily create it or or gu didn’t even think of it it’s just more creating a space and place for them to experiment I think you probably remember this from my class maybe not but I often would say Ministry is like a laboratory a lot of people don’t like that I shouldn’t say a lot but some be like well it’s not so messy like in some ways it is and we we don’t totally know we just go out there we do stuff and see what God does with that right and it’s and then if it like didn’t work okay that didn’t mean that we were wrong we just we tried something didn’t pan out that’s okay we’ll try something else again instead of taking it as like a failure like oh man we uh we totally did things wrong we should never do something like that again no we were experimenting we were trying we’re taking a risk you know see what happens so um and and let you know you you kind of do something and see what God does it um I think that’s that’s exciting to see different uh leaders um different kids different people uh take that risk the another one of course is exciting is to see people who are part of community group then say hey I want to post I want to be a leader now um and that um is is cool to see them want to take another step forward especially this one couple who they he was he didn’t grow up in the church he was uh hurt by the church for a period of time um probably because of his own you know he had a he had an unhealthy marriage and ended up getting a divorce and um and and he would own that like he was that’s part a lot of that’s on him but through that process he like he didn’t really uh didn’t want to go to church again he gets remarried to this other woman who did not grow up in the church but she uh threw some different uh challenges and stuff ends up exploring Christianity coming to Jesus and says hey I think we should go to church together and he was like oh man I was hoping to get away from that the last wife I had who did the church thing and it blew up like I don’t want to do this but then he he starts coming with her and they have a sweet experience in one of my community groups and then wants to lead and they’re doing a great job there’s this beautiful authenticity to them they don’t do everything perfectly they still have some rough edges of course but they’re learning and growing in a way that’s very genuine and so um so I think again creating that space and place to see what God does and allowing the imperfect people to still serve um instead of looking for that perfect servant which it doesn’t exist but um and just walking alongside them and seeing what happens is I think really exciting yeah definitely um can you tell me about some of the challenges and failures that you’ve encountered through those sure um I think um the biggest and you can read books after book every this but the thing that I always uh the hurt is where you have someone who you thought you had um just a beautiful connection with and they had a healthy relationship with the Lord um walk away you know and not just walk away from the ministry but walk away from the faith all together and and again there’s always hope and I’ve recently been encouraged like this I this one youth kid who I knew had a tough tough um story right he was uh adopted um and uh and struggled a lot in school because of some of the um you know the lack of development that he had being an orphanage in another country for a long time and then um you know and then was in a family that was overall good but very uh strict and so was kind of a lot of hurt there and then goes off to college totally lives the The Prodigal story um and you’re just like man what did I do and there was a group of like him and a couple other friends and stuff like that where you’re just like man what happened and again you have there’s all the excuses like I knew their stories like they had some tough relationships with their parents um some bad um exposure to other things you know and just their own selfish you know Pride that we all struggle with and wanting to do their own thing and not miss out on what the world had to offer and so just you know chasing these different things but then he’s been recently coming he had this this powerful moment um and felt like you need to go back to church and felt God just speaking to him through dreams and he’s been coming to church regularly and so there’s a victory there but again the ones that especially the ones that you served with like I there’s another one where he he was a leader of mine for a few years LED our our boys trips to Joshua Tree and and now doesn’t have anything to do with the church as far as I know um and and just to see that that that uh you know whatever prob ter of course deconstruction or um you know but just just seeing this like man what happened you know because because then it taints the moment that you had like when we were when we were praying around the fire at that boy trip when we were worshiping together at that camp and you were a leader with these boys and speaking truth into them like what you know where did that all go you know that those are those are probably the biggest heartaches um is seeing uh that that happen yeah um what are some challenges other challenges of course is like staff Dynamics you know on church where you have you have an idea of what what kind of decision should be made and present another decision how do you work through that different um you know the deepest disagreements of course you’re over values and as much as we Christians you think would have all the same values there’s a lot of values that aren’t necessarily based in the Bible but we all you know like like cleanliness versus messiness or like punctuality versus is you know um being a little more spontaneous all those values that are neither bad or good they just are what they are sometimes those can really um create friction on the staff and then sometimes you get you come away like man I would have totally made that decision differently and the decision that was made is impacting your your schedule or your um the way your ministry is going to kind of work and and so those are challenges learning how to roll with it and let it go and other times when to speak up and say hey if you really thought this through or thought about this um because churches have a way you know Ministries have a way of impacting each other and sometimes what’s hard is when you’re when you’re not the guy you’re not in every decision making meeting you but then you have to live with the results of that decision sometimes you like man if I had been there and be able to share my perspective or i’ been there and be able to share a little bit of the impact this decision may have maybe they would have changed it or modified it or done a little differently and um and it would have turned out you know differently and then but then again that gets back to who am I to judge like what’s better or worse and but same thing um it’s it’s hard sometimes to kind of watch things play out um and having to kind of like okay do an adjustment even though it wasn’t your call you need to be a good soldier and support the decision but it’s kind of creating a issue for you anyway so there’s those things yeah um and so in terms of community groups as well like what what failures and and challenges have you been able to face with those well you always feel bit like uh probably the more recent one is like I I’ve been really hoping to have like this young younger I don’t do them by ages or stages but some naturally Trend older or Trend younger um and so there’s this one the these these these two couples were both uh had their in their 30s have little kids um both have had a lot of experience being in Ministry or serving in churches before I thought okay this could be a really Dynamic group um and they had a decent experience but you know they also have other goals and things like that both decided not to host again this spring and then can I get them back and I had I have other couples like that where it’s like it seemed like they had a good experience I thought they’re doing a great job and and they’re like no we don’t want to host anymore and they don’t even participate in community group and and that’s that part where you’re like you like it’s not that necessary I want I can find other leaders to replace them um but when you see someone who has a gift or who does a good job at something and they decide to stop doing it’s like well why why are you doing that you know um and and the hard part is with adults you have much less ability to persuade or um you know um kind of challenged like you can with youth and so I have to be gentle and careful and just sayy they made a decision to do things differently and that’s okay but part of you wants to have that kind a heart to heart like hey what’s going on here where are you coming from what is this the healthiest thing um because I know for some especially in our culture today there’s so many who give into anxiety and like ah I’m just too overwhelmed I need to just really isolate and simplify my life and I is more and more especially from what I’m seeing in my classroom too in my other job is I just push back against that like no isolating is not the answer um you know you know you need to let go of those anxieties and and let go of that perfectionism of having everything just right just the way you want it to customize your life to exactly all your needs want that’s not how we’re going to serve our world we have to be able to you know pick up our cross um and endure a little bit put ourselves into tough situations and be okay with it everything being a little you know funky or off or whatever so those are the conversations in my head that I’d like to have with them is like okay I let let’s be real okay you struggle with this anxiety fear thing and how can we help you to get back into serving because it’s not just healthy for you it’s healthy for your marriage healthy for your kids to really put aside that and to serve in one if if it’s not with Community groups that’s fine with something else but um I just see this kind of inward you know like self- love kind of mentality for some and that that’s the part I think I struggle the most in community groups is that some people they have in a mind like what it’s going to look like and then they actually get the people in their room like oh this is a little bit of work this isn’t all fun we’re not just going to be like hey the best of friends playing like Uno or other games you know and our you know and just having barbecues and stuff like that like you get some you know what we call Extra Care Personalities in there and it’s hard to serve them and so to learn to work through that um those frustrations and it’s not always easy and still find joy in the serving I think that’s that’s my Challenge and you know you know people on staffage are just struggle with that right head pastors struggle with that all the time like man serving my congregation can be a real chore and I just want to you know I would just wish people would just uh Buy in and just run with this you know but it’s you know we’re all in perfect so I think that’s that’s the part my community grou figuring a way to keep that going um and and also I think what goes with that for any leader like myself is to not focus on that negative all the time it’s like okay so yeah a few couples that I thought were going to be dynamic leaders aren’t aren’t serving but I have all these other ones who are you know and be thankful for them and to pour into them um there’s that balance of okay yes we’re supposed to pursue the one lost sheep out of the 99 in some way that’s God’s job right to pursue that my job is to to pour into the ones that I have in front of me and then listen to God if he’s like no you should go you should pursue that person even though they’re not there that’s that’s good too so that that’s probably the challenge is where to focus my energies or how to have balance in that and in recruiting and trying to encourage those who are struggling and then also to pour into the ones who really love it um and so they can do even more do you ever see um people from the youth group that you serve with um do you ever see them going into the community groups um I not most of them aren’t quite I have more like former youth leaders I had one or two there um but in terms of actually you kids most of them aren’t quite to that age yet that would really be wanting I had one recently that tried it but they had a brand new baby and the scheduling hasn’t worked out um right now at our church we have a Young Adult Ministry called yams for short that goes from 18 to 28 so most of my former youth kids would be in that Ministry if they’re still at our church um and haven’t quite got to the uh wanting to be the adult adults in community groups that’s something that me and the other guy who oversees y who talked a little bit about how to help make that transition happen but um yeah I think in general right a lot of churches across the country are struggling with that how do they have the younger generation stick around and become part of the quote unquote big church and and be part of it especially a church that’s been around for a long time like our like dark pastor’s been there for over 30 years so it you know it feels a little older at times yeah and I I know what you’re talking about about uh the responsibility of of the youth pastor to help transition the high schoolers into you know a regular service because there there’s often a very big divide between the youth group and the rest of the church have you found that to be true have what have you found that to be true that there’s a big divide yes I found that very very much to be true and I think you know I’ve been reading you know some books from Fuller youth Seminary um or Fuller Seminary their their youth Institute uh and they they talk about that regularly I think a lot of that’s something a lot of TR struggle with um and and so yeah I wish and I don’t know if I know the answer I do know um right now our youth guy who you may know from the Bible College stes Cameron cely he he would like to see the youth be in the main sanctuary uh more often not every week but um you know regularly in the with the adults so they can get a chance to um you know see what big church is like see their parents worship see all that um I think there’s there because in some ways is it’s been the model for a lot of churches for a long time like you put the youth in a separate place where they have a separate style of church that meets them at their development age which there’s very good reasons for that but then it it makes going to the big church such a different experience and they’re like whoa what is this or this feels so weird I want to be you know a stiff adult yet and so there’s that there’s that part of it where I think segregating our our church so much between ages sometimes hurts uh the ability for young adults to feel welcome uh into uh the church at large sometimes but then again some of this also are unfortunately from our culture around us outside the church is this this this glorification of Youth and so um and that youth shouldn’t be separate like parents just don’t understand this whole idea that you know you don’t be with your parents for a long time so there’s a lot of young people I think who just bu to that whole mindset of well you know whatever my parents are doing I am not going to do um and so they don’t want to be in that situation honestly I think what helps most kids is like when they go up to college or they leave the house they find a different church that’s not with their parents and they just for some reason it allows them to feel more like okay I can be part of this even though it’s probably not much different than where they grew up but there’s just something about like them now choosing a church that doesn’t have all these people who knew them when they were tiny when they were little they feel like they’re surrounded by their ants and uncles and grandparents in a sense right um and they can be who they are now as an adult at a church I see and that’s where I I you know we have people on our staff who uh would love to see people born grow up and uh raise their kids in the same church and that’s a beautiful idea but I think especially in American culture today I just don’t see that playing out very often I see more people if they have a healthy relationship with Jesus growing up with growing up in the church but then as they get adult picking a different Church to provide a different experience different voice in their lives and also just to feel like okay I I have a little bit of separation from my my childhood and can and grow up because even in our own patterns of our mind right we go into the same building that we were when we were six or seven and it’s hard not to revert a little bit and your your mind you know that so it’s almost healthy I think sometimes to find a different church when you’re an adult because it it it tricks your mind in a sense to see it in a different ey different perspective than like you know just this last weekend for Easter I went back home to visit my mom and went to the church that I went to uh when I was in high school and it’s very different now but at the same time it’s like you know oh I remember this you know it’s just the the the um the environment surrounding the Aesthetics kind of make you I almost feel like I’m back in high school again and that’s that sometimes get in the way of me being able to grow and learn and receive um the instruction there so so I think sometimes I I wish um for some adult uh Ministry leaders uh parents would be encourage their kids to try different churches when they become at a certain age instead of no youve got to go to the church that we go to that we grew up in you know because I think there’s it helps them um feel more free I guess or it helps with their their mental approach I think to continuing their growth and their relationship with Jesus so if someone were to start from where you started uh to do either to start over in youth ministry or start over in Community groups what sort of advice would you give them starting out or what advice would you have wanted to hear when you started out um I think um the advice that I just from my own family members and then uh just seeing it growing up um and reading books also is just be uh one it’s classic but be patient um I I what breaks my heart like when I was teaching you guys in the youth ministry classes I see people jump into youth ministry and they’re gone in two years right and that’s so short and that adds to that like kind of in our divorce culture like there’s another adult who’s gone in that kid’s life right and so I just would encourage people like okay think about how long you want to commit to it and then double it and commit even longer right um just to give like to have that slow steady growth mindset um so like if you’re jumping into youth ministry like okay unless it’s really bad or something crazy happens like commit four to five years right to see like a freshman group all the way to high school um and say the community group like in my mind I was like okay this is a four to five year process and I’m going to commit four to five years to to see this through unless something crazy happens and not just be like okay I’m done after a year and a half right you have too many people who bounce so quick from one place to another to another to another so I would just think I would my preference would to see people like okay because that way you see it through the valley and the peak right there there’s it’s going to be exciting for the first few months and then the honeymoon’s over or whatever and then it’s going to be frustrating and if you stop then you’re gonna have a bad taste in your mouth you’re gonna have this negative perspective over your time ministry but if you more often than not just like marriage right hopefully you’re getting the same advice in premar couny is like as you as you see it through after four to five years you get into this healthy Rhythm you get into this place where you kind of figured out your style your uh abilities you’ve grown and learn if you committed to learning and being patient with this process and you get to a place where you feel like you’re in a in a decent group and and there’s also there’s something about when you stick around that long whether you’ve done a good job or not that that perseverance one as we know in scripture builds character but two with people it builds trust and that is a thing that is so important that we um we we tend to underestimate how long it takes to build trust and um and how valuable that is um it’s more valuable than the talent or Charisma or skill that someone has in Ministry in my opinion and so just being patient and um and commit longer term even if you feel like you’re missing out on opportunities or other things from other places like just take that time um because that’s going to build trust it’s going to help you grow grow farther than you would have if you bounced earlier um and and and at least for me my personality is like okay I committed four to five years even though I feel like quitting right here or if it’s really frustrating I’m going to hang in there um and and see it through and if it’s still bad in 4 five years well then there’s my answer you know but um but I think it also holds you kind of provides an anchor for for you uh to see things through so that you get a more Fuller experience and development uh that God has planned for you in my opinion well I don’t have any more questions I think another one that I wish I had done a youth ministry that I didn’t but I have been doing with Community groups is I I have my own small personal prayer team like a group of people who I just send a an email about once a month or so to um saying hey here’s what’s going on in the ministry uh please pray for this and pray for me in these ways and it’s not necessar for my family prayers type of stuff it’s just more like having some some people in my corner praying for me and um I think that’s been uh a healthy thing it helps me reflect and think about what’s going on as I write those emails and then it um to have them knowing that they’re in my corner I think is good so um so yeah so that’s that’s something I would suggested even if it’s just like two or three people and one of them is your grandma you know have a prayer team um that you uh communicate regularly with well uh anything else you’d like to say um no I think um I think the main thing is uh we need um in Ministry I love that you’re you’re focusing on discipleship and just I don’t think there’s like a formula or anything it’s just slowing down and being available and uh Allowing God to work and uh in different ways and looking for those opportunities but I think if we could get more people to do that instead of it being like a few celebrity pastor right or podcast post or any of that like getting back to that kind of okay I’m happy with serving two to 300 people and make an impact in my local community and then seeing what God does with that and maybe some missionaries are raised out of that that’s great you know and being willing to do that and or people end up creating a YouTube channel or a podcast or writing a book that’s great but um being um being willing to allow to get more hands into the to work right to empowering people to participate in their faith instead of being such a consumer mindset um that’s my My Hope and prayer for um the church at large in America is to have participants instead of consumers what do you think the the road there looks like that’s a great question it sounds like a PhD job for Jacob um I I think like a lot you know if you’ve read some of the these big books or whatever I think um like I think his name Dave kinon at um what’s it the Barna group I think is his name but anyway he focuses a lot on the Israel’s timing Babylon and saying look our models need to be Nehemiah our models need to be Daniel um in a post-christian u Western Civilization we need to learn how to like serve competently to be people that you know secular people trust like Daniel and Nehemiah but then to be bold in our faith at Key times um and to be able to serve those who are not like us in a beautiful powerful uh way um you know Tim kuller in one of his books he was famous for pointing out like what this this uh one Caesar wrote like we can totally Stamp Out the Christians if it wasn’t for their generosity and and just how the Christian Community in the early uh Roman EMP in that early time in the Roman Empire were willing to you know go to where the Bubonic plague was and serve the people who are dying who were willing to uh give money to their neighbors when that was so not the Roman culture who were just willing to so they weren’t worried about their wealth they weren’t worried about their safety they wanted to make an impact and sacrifice for the people around them and I I just and so the thing like where I live maretta which is known for being one of the safest cities in all of California one of our Idols to safety and I constantly am trying to gently push people in our church to not be so concerned about being safe and but to be generous to give to sacrifice for people around them um and that’s really hard when so much of the messaging in our culture is you know take care of yourself you know make sure you’re you’re safe make sure you got your money that you get yours all that mindset and so I think but I know every without fail pretty much when you are radically generous it it touches people around you right um it really makes an impact and and um being and so I think if we as Christians could be more willing to give our money and time and that’s where again go back you know is that it makes an impact so I think we need more stories and examples and creating a culture of generosity of sacrifice and giving and I think that speaks volumes to people around us who um who feel like uh that the whole society’s a mess or that especially Christians are a for America I think the more we can be generous and give and not expect anything in return um and just not look for necessarily the results but just like I’m giving because I I love right because Christ calls me to I think that that could be uh really powerful yeah well thank you so much for doing this interview I really appreciate it it’s been really nice to hear from you again no problem and if you need more later let me know yeah absolutely I would love to interview you again um specifically about your leadership degree that seems very interesting okay sure if you like to yeah and uh have fun planning the wedding and congratulations I hope you and Emma have a a good time getting to the big day and everything works out thank you thank you very much well again thank you all right no problem jacob take care you too goodbye